Cover for a videotape cassette version published in the 1990s.
The Museum holds that this video is a hoax designed to mislead the public, and that the public has an overriding interest in having the full text available for examination and review, outside the bewildering soup-pot of imagery presented in the video.
Part 2
— Page 11 —
Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: Yes, they did. I saw them …
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): They were flash packs.
Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: Have you ever seen what a flash bang can do to somebody? It is a grenade. It has an explosive charge in it. It's very dangerous. It can blow your hand off. It can blow your face off. It can kill. I would have brought out some of the unexpended grenades that the ATF threw in, but I was worried about bringing out a live grenade, so I left them there. There were a number of grenades.
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): OK, Mr. DeGuerin, I think that would hamper your credibility because you're the first person who would say they were grenades. … 6 1/2 hours of defense lawyers … their ways of sliding over the truth was very unfortunate … this idea of the FBI having hand grenades not flash bangs, but hand grenades … And finally, coup de grace, Mr. DeGuerin said that flash bangers can kill, injure, maim. Anyone who knows anything about these things knows that they can't.
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R): Uh. Mr. Cavanaugh, I have in my hand an amount of Play Dough. Mr. Bush, if you could, just standard Play Dough. If that were a flash bang grenade or a stun grenade, same thing, which was live, which the pin had been pulled, would you feel comfortable just holding that in your hand?
Jim Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: My answer is No! I would not hold it!
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R): Those are classified as destructive devices under 26 USC Section 5845 F, aren't they?
Jim Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: Yes, sir.
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R): That they can kill people, is that true?
Jim Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: Certainly. Yes, sir.
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R): Well, a gentleman by the name of Warren L. Parker, an explosives enforcement officer, Bureau of ATF, on May 11, 1994 in court, said under oath they are designed to help kill the suspect while not endangering the law enforcement officer when they're used for those purposes.
Steven Schiff, US Congress, New Mexico (R): I'd like to focus on the search warrant. First, it was put together, as a number of witnesses have testified, in a prejudicial and inflammatory manner. And second … it clearly mistates the US Code statute number for the offense charged, and, I think makes other technical mistakes in the law. Which means to me it was put together in a sloppy fashion, Now you put together inflammatory with sloppy, that means to me that ATF was in a hurry to make a big splash with something.
Stuart H. Wright, Editor, Armageddon at Waco: Why was a warrant sought in the first place since David Koresh, on learning that he was being investigated by the ATF, invited the agents on July 30th, 1992, through his gun dealer, Henry McMahon, to come to his residence and inspect his firearms?
— Page 12 —
John B. Shadegg, US Congress, Arizona (R): They never once followed up on that offer. Never even tried to follow up on that offer …
Robert Sanders, former ATF Deputy Director: I can't imagine any circumstances when I would not take up such an offer. It indicates a mind-set. Perhaps it was non willful. Perhaps what the ATF thought were violations of the law were really things that Mr. Koresh thought were legal.
John B. Shadegg, US Congress, Arizona (R): It suggests that what they really wanted to do was conduct a raid, not make an arrest or conduct a search.
Robert Sanders: In the opinion of the agents, you know, the planning for Waco and the manner in which it was done was done for the purpose of publicity.
Bill Brewster, US Congress, Oklahoma (D): Mr. Hartnett, there's a rumor, surely it's unfounded, that the publicity person or public relations person for ATF had released some kind of a press communication the night before to media around the country that something big was going to come down in Texas?
Bill Hartnett, former ATF Deputy Director: Yes, and we heard that and . . she called … called the reporter to ask if he was going to be in.
Bill Brewster, US Congress, Oklahoma (D): Why did she do that?
Bill Hartnett, former ATF Deputy Director: She wanted to be able to get a hold of them in case we recovered these arms.
Bill Brewster, US Congress, Oklahoma (D): Wouldn't there be ample time after they were recovered?
Bill Hartnett, former ATF Deputy Director: Oh, Yes, I mean …
Sharon Wheeler, ATF Public Relations: I just said we might have something going on here in Dallas this weekend and I'd like to have a weekend contact number and that's what I was given.
Bill Brewster, US Congress, Oklahoma (D): What was the purpose for contacting them? Were you actually seeking publicity for the agency?
Sharon Wheeler, ATF public Relations: Absolutely not!
Bill Brewster, US Congress, Oklahoma (D): OK. Then I guess I don't understand the reason for your call.
Narration: The ATF needed good publicity. With its appropriations hearings a week away, a successful raid this size would produce major positive headlines to counter the ATF's reputation as a rogue agency whose debacles blackened the reputations of other agencies. And it would scare the public enough about fringe groups to create political pressure on Congress to increase its budget. Henry Ruth was one of three independent reviewers of the Treasury Department's report on Waco.
— Page 13 —
Henry S. Ruth, Jr., Independent Reviewer, US Treasury Report on Waco: At least part of the ATF motivation, even if it never rose to the surface of discussion, was to, enforce the morals of our society. To enforce the psyche of right thinking by retaliating against these odd people.
Narration: Almost 100 agents spent three days in dress rehearsals at Ft. Hood, Texas, all at US Army expense.
Steven Schiff, US Congress, New Mexico (R): So in other words, in order for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to have obtained the military assistance they did receive, not because of the Posse Comitatus Act, but because of existing military policy, they misrepresented to the military that this was an anti-drug raid when it was never an anti-drug raid.
Dick DeGuerin, Attorney for David Koresh: As practicing lawyers, we know that usually judges rubber stamp the applications for search warrants.
Melvin Watt, US Congress, N. Carolina (D): I think it was House Bill 666, uh, I invite you to give me your comments on whether that helps us in protecting individual rights or whether we have done a disservice to the rights of American citizens.
Dick DeGuerin, Attorney for David Koresh: Ah, one thing I can beg that you not do is do away with the exclusionary rule. I think that's the only thing that's been shown to be effective in enforcing the Fourth Amendment.
Orrin Hatch, US Senate, Utah (R): The Fourth Amendment guarantees the right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects. Ironically, a charred copy of that very Amendment was found in the debris at Waco. There's the charred copy that was found right there at Waco.
Alan A. Stone, Harvard University: Unfortunately, there are many people who still, when they speak to me about Waco, say, "well those people were involved in drugs." And there's no evidence that Koresh was or that any of these people were.
Narration: The morning of February 28th, ATF and Texas Department of Public Safety officers blocked the roads leading to Mt. Carmel Center. Several miles away, the raid team was busy suiting up, fully expecting to surprise the Davidians. Sharon Wheeler had ample video tape for the many cameras that agency officials thought would record a major publicity coup.
Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County: The news people were out there thirty minutes before the raid. They knew, they were out there, that's how supposedly they were tipped off, by a newsperson.
Narration: Most of the one hundred and thirty men, women and children inside of Mt. Carmel learned about the raid only minutes before it happened.
Clive Doyle, Branch Davidian Survivor: 'Bout the time I got there David came in from the other side, different side of the room. And came in said that they heard that someone was coming and he wanted everybody to remain calm and collected in the room. Stay cool; he would go down to the front door and talk to them.
Robert L. Ehlich, Jr., US Congress, Maryland (R): You were with Koresh, correct? Did you request that the raid be called off because the element of surprise had been lost?
Robert Rodriguez, ATF Undercover Agent: Yes, sir. I arrived at the command post and the first thing, the first thing I asked was "Where's Chuck? Where's Chuck?" and they advised me that he had left. At that time I started yelling and I said "Why? Why? They know we're coming, they know we're coming."
Chuck Sarabyn, ATF Raid Team Commander: I did not feel he knew we were coming at that time. When I talked with Robert like I testified before, I took notes while we were talking over the thing. And I have read all of Robert's statements. Robert did a great job, but I think everything that you heard as far as testimony was not passed on to me.
— Page 14 —
Robert Rodriguez, ATF Special Agent: Those two men know what I told them, and they knew exactly what I meant. And instead of coming up and admitting to the American people right after the raid that they had made a mistake, that the element of surprise had been lost, that the agent had advised them that they knew they were coming. Instead of doing that, they lied to the public and in so doing, they just about destroyed a very great agency.
Narration: The helicopters were to arrive first at the rear of Mt. Carmel and divert the Davidians attention from the ATF agents moving in on the ground from the front. Morale was high on board as they approached.
Dan Maloney, KWTX-TV, Waco: Approximately 9:15 we saw three helicopters: 2 small ones and a large one and we sat there and watched them. They were making big loops behind the compound. They were just sort of circling, not the compound, but behind it.
We were getting back in the truck … and we look up and a cattle trailer goes by; it's chuck full of ATF agents. And we were sitting there, and then about 2, 3, 4 seconds later, another cattle trailer goes by.
Sheila Martin, Branch Davidian Survivor: I saw the truck come in … And the second truck stopped and barely stopped and then a man jumped out and all kind of whatever kind of gear it was he had on, and had a gun in his hand and says, "Okay boys." Then I heard a voice to the right of me, downstairs, I could tell it was at the door, then I heard a voice on the outside and then I heard another voice, inside, and then I heard shots outside.
[Davidian home video]
Judy Schneider Koresh: My name is Judy Schneider Koresh. This is my daughter Mayanah. And as you can see, I was wounded when the ATF came in and assaulted us. I was quite surprised to see our government act the way it did. And David went to the door with his hands out and said don't shoot, there's women and children in here. And yet they opened fire and fired at everyone here.
James Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: And when we drove up the Davidians opened fire, and I am sickened by any other assertion. I sat there and I watched it. And the gunfire came from those double white doors. I watched it. It's unbelievable, but that's what happened. And anybody else who says anything different; they shot first. And if I thought that an ATF agent would drive up in front of a structure and shoot, I'd throw my badge in the garbage. It didn't happen.
Robert Ehrlich, Jr., US Congress, Maryland (R): What is your opinion on the basis of the evidence that you've seen with respect to the issue of who shot first?
Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: If the Branch Davidians had intended to ambush those people with forty-eight machine guns and fifty caliber machine guns and they came up in unprotected cattle cars with nothing but tarps on 'em, they would have blown them away! So that convinced us that the Davidians did not fire first.
Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: I sat by that door for several hours. I went in and out of that door ten times. And I saw the bullet holes on the door on the right side. Almost every bullet hole was an incoming round. And what I mean by that, it's a metal door, you could easily tell that the bullets were incoming rounds, they were punched in. I'm not the Marine expert Jack Zimmerman is, but I've been hunting since I was ten years old and I know a bullet hole when I see one. And those holes were punched in …
What you need to find is the video tape that was made of the raid. It disappeared. What you need to get is the photographs of the front that are similar to the one that is being displayed right now … Now you have the power to get that evidence, and you ought to get it.
Make sure that you get the correct door. The door that survived for the trial was the door on the left. And the door on the right disappeared. It has to be the door on the right. That's where I saw the bullet holes.
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): That is not fair. That is not a proceeding that is right. If we want to go over the issue of who fired first, then we should, wait a second, I'd like to finish my point.
William H. Zeliff, Jr., US Congress, New Hampshire (R): It's not a point of order.
— Page 15 —
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): It is a point of order.
William H. Zeliff, Jr., US Congress, New Hampshire (R): I will just make one comment to the witnesses relative to the video and the front door. We have consistently asked as a committee to get a copy of the video tape which they now say is blank. We have asked for the door, and the door is missing.
Dan Maloney, KWTX-TV, Waco: The first cattle trailer had already pulled up; the second one was pulling up, and we got about halfway down the driveway and all hell broke lose.
[Davidian home video]
Marjorie, a Davidian: We saw three helicopters and the next thing they're firing, you're on the floor with bullet shells flying all over your head, it's frightening …
David Koresh: If there's any question whatsoever that kids or women are involved, damn you, I tell you what, you keep your damn gun in the holster …
David Thibodeau, Branch Davidian Survivor: All this is happening while they're supposed to serve a knock-search warrant. You know, they knock on the door and serve the warrant. And you have one of your ATF agents who goes up to the front of the building where there's a very large pent-up area that we had for Fawn, an Alaskan malamute and four pups that were living there. And they shot them in cold blood, first thing.
Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: This was an unreasonable search done in an unreasonable manner with excessive force. And the law is clear: Even an arrest by lawfully constituted officers can be resisted if before anything else happens, those officers used excessive force …
Victor Oboyski, President, Law Enforcement Officer's Association: The day of a couple of agents or a couple of detectives walking up to somebody's front door and knocking on a door in three piece suits to execute a warrant of any kind is over … we have to protect the public. And that's where we stand. We stand between the Koresh's of the world and everybody here. We stand there.
John Carroll, Davidian Defense Attorney: Wayne Martin, one of the people inside the compound, almost immediately after the raid began, called 911. He called for a cop. And was complaining that they were being assaulted and he wanted the ATF called off.
911 Operator: Hello?
Wayne Martin: Yeah, there's 75 men around our building and they're shootin' at us at Mt. Carmel.
911 Operator: Mt. Carmel?
Wayne Martin: Yeah, tell 'em there're women and children in here and to call 'em off.
911 Operator: I hear gunfire.
— Page 16 —
Wayne Martin: It's Wayne!
911 Operator: Wayne … Tell me what's happening, Wayne.
Wayne Martin: We got women and children in danger!
911 Operator: Wayne?
Wayne Martin: I'm under fire … tell 'em to call it off.
911 Operator: What?
Wayne Martin: Tell 'em to pullback … I have the right to defend myself. They started firing first.
Dan Maloney, KWTX-TV, Waco: The first 15, 20 minutes, it was get the job done, shoot the video. And then when you see people getting shot, and hear people screaming, and the bullets hitting … You could start hearing people being hit and screaming and yelling. You could see people getting hit … I have 2 daughters, I started thinking about my daughters. I started wondering how the heck am I gonna get outa here?
Clive Doyle, Branch Davidian Survivor: Somebody said to me, "Winston Blake is dead." I said, "Where's he at?". They said, "he's up in his room" and as I turned into his doorway, Winston's lying on the floor beside his bed in a pool of blood and water. Water was pouring into the room from just dozens of bullet holes in the water tank, which was just outside his window. And the window was all shattered and everything. And I figured that judging from the angle of the bullets coming down from the outside coming down into the room that it had to be from a helicopter. There's no buildings, tall buildings out in back. Anybody from the ground couldn't have shot at that angle into the water tanks.
Narration: The Davidians shot back. The helicopter landing in the foreground has been forced down by multiple hits. Seventeen year old Peter Gent was inside the silo scraping rust when the raid began. Gent is barely visible in this news video as he climbed to the top to see what was going on. The video apparently shows him being shot from this passing helicopter. Gent falters, and then drops back onto the silo's roof Federal officials didn't let the Davidians remove his body for five days.
Steve Schneider: (There's) a chopper with more of 'em, 911
Operator: What?
Steve Schneider: Another chopper with more people and more guns goin' off … Here they come!
911 Operator: Alright, Wayne.
Steve Schneider: (WE) aren't firing! That's not us, that's them!
Page 17 —
911 Operator: OK … The … alright …
Lorraine Sylvia, Killed April 19, 1993: I don't know how the American people can stand by and watch the things they planned. We have people out here; we have all these people: women, children, tiny babies. These men in came here and they started firing on us. The bullets came through the walls and people were killed, people were injured. And this is America?
Rachael Koresh, Killed April 19, 1993: My dad's name was Perry Jones. He was an unarmed man. And you guys just shot through the door and killed him. Thanks a lot.
[Davidian home video]
Steve Schneider: What happened there with your finger? You were just sitting there, I was told you were nursing the baby?
Judy Schneider Koresh, Killed April 19, 1993: … I was sitting here kind of like his—I'm not exactly sure it happened so fast—but at any rate it went up this finger into my hand and out of my shoulder.
[Gunbattle]
ATF: Cameraman! Camera! Hey!
Dan Maloney: Ambulance. Got it!
Dan Maloney, KWTX-TV, Waco: We were sittin' there and ATF agent said "Newsman, newsman, call an ambulance, we need an ambulance." John got back into the car and just as he was reaching the car … a bullet came through the door jam. He dove into the car and made the phone call … And we had to physically make the phone call. And this is to my understanding that this is first time an ambulance had been called. This was well into the gun battle. For some reason they didn't have any communications, why would we have to call an ambulance?
James Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: Nobody was going to get us out. The McLennan County Sheriffs office, who always did a good job, in this case, could not get us out of this. We couldn't call 91 1; I mean we couldn't call anybody.
Bill McCollum, US Congress, Florida (R): Well it just seems interesting to me that they didn't even have telephones or communications to get that 911 communication back and forth that Wayne Martin had from inside the compound for 20 minutes to try and stop the shooting. But at the same time they had fax machines, telephones and computers and were ready for whatever PR they had that that was a mighty strange operation to say the least, it certainly a fatal law, not to pun a word.
Fred Heineman, US Congress, North Carolina (R): Mr. Hartnett, was there a raid plan?
Bill Hartnett, Former ATF Deputy Director: We had pieces of it; if you know what I mean; that they hadn't brought it together; it was right in the middle of an order going out to the field, giving them specific instructions on how to … written raid plan; how to bring it together and forward it forward. It was out for written coordination at the time; what I received was written, but very, very abbreviated.
Stephen E. Buyer, US Congress, Indiana (R): In your review, did ATF, and they're participating in this close combat support, did they have go-no go procedures?
Wade Ishimoto, Sandia National Laboratories: Yes sir, but of a very, I'm looking for the appropriate words. I'll just call them an unsophisticated variety.
— Page 18 —
Stephen E. Buyer, US Congress, Indiana (R): An unsophisticated variety. That's very tactful; you're being very tactful today. In your report you didn't … you weren't as tactful because you said their lack of contingency plan basically was quote an "oh shit" plan. Isn't that basically what you … run from the building, take cover, oh shit, it's coming.
James Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: They were throwing everything at us. Their guns sounded like cannons. And our guns were pop guns. We had 9 millimeters; they were hitting us with 223s, AK-47's, 50 millimeters. It was more than you can imagine.
Wayne Martin: We're under fire!
911 Operator: OK, stand by while I make contact with the forces, OK?
911 Operator to dispatcher: We need to get … try the ah … ah, radio band one more time on our frequency. Did you call DPS?
91 1 Operator: … Hold on just a minute, Wayne.
911 Operator on other phone: Hello … no I have not … and, and ah … nobody's responding to the damn radio. They're wantin' everybody to back off and talk. I'm tryin' to get … uh … What radio frequency, they told me the radio van. We're not getting a response. (hangs up phone) I can't believe this.
Dan Maloney, KWTX-TV, Waco: After about approximately 2 hours we heard that there was a truce. We heard ATF agents say "don't shoot, don't shoot."
Narrator: The agents were out of ammunition.
David Koresh: You got an argument with me … You come and argue with me. You come pointing guns in the direction of my wives and kids, dammit, I'll meet you at the door anytime. And I'm sorry some of you guys got shot. But a, hey, God'Il have to sort that out won't be?
Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County: They could've killed every ATF agent out there the day of the raid, had they kept shooting. But when they said they would leave their property, they quit shooting. They were highly protective of their property.
Bill H. Zellif, US Congress, New Hampshire (R): … the chair recognizes Mr. Taylor from Mississippi for five minutes. Gene Taylor, US Congress, Mississippi (D) Do you have any combat experience?
Jack Zimmermann: Twenty six months, sir. Commanded two artillery batteries in Viet Nam.
Gene Taylor, US Congress, Mississippi (D): Have you seen anything or heard anything … that justifies the murder of those 4 ATF agents and 20 more were wounded by Branch Davidians, by David Koresh and his followers …?
— Page 19 —
Jack Zimmermann and Dick DeGuerin: Yes sir. Yes.
Gene Taylor, US Congress, Mississippi (D): All right, tell me what it is sir.
Zimmermann and DeGuerin: (DeGuerin) The jury in San Antonio found that the killings of the four agents were in self defense. (Zimmerman) They were acquitted of murder, sir, did you know that? (Zimmerman) They were acquitted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Every single defendant, all eleven were acquitted of murder.
Gene Taylor, US Congress, Mississippi (D): Are you going tell me that every murderer in this country who walked was really innocent.
Zimmermann and DeGuerin: Well you asked me did we know of anything that would say they weren't guilty of murder, and the answer is yes … If the ATF accidentally or however opened fire on people in their home and all they did was defend themselves in their home, then under the law that's justifiable homicide, it's not murder.
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): … is there any way that somebody could believe that justifiable homicide … could be used as a defense here?
James Cavanaugh, ATF Special Agent: No, Mr. Schumer … Assertions that we had helicopters, or men from Mars shooting at them is nonsense. Our agents were laying on the ground shooting at a tower three stories high. Should we be surprised there are bullets on the roof?
Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Of course, I agree with you, Mr. Cavanaugh.
Tim Evans, Davidian Defense Attorney: You must understand that not one agent who was at the raid on the scene of the 28' made a written report of it. That's highly irregular … on March the 8th, the ATF initiates a shooting review Johnston, the Assistant United States Attorney advised Hartnett to stop the ATF shooting review because ATF was creating Brady material. Brady material, ladies and gentlemen, is information that might tend to show that someone accused is innocent.
Narration: In this case, the Branch Davidians now in federal prison for possessing weapons at a federal crime scene.
Tim Evans, Branch Davidian Attorney: Now, they tried to explain this to say that, well … that just meant that we don't—what-want to compromise the prosecution. You don't want to compromise the prosecution by revealing evidence that might tend to show that somebody is not guilty of the charges? Well, that's not where we are in this country, I hope.
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R): Is it your experience these memos came out every time that a shooting review took place?
Michael Langan, Former Acting Deputy Assistant Treasury Secretary, Clinton Administration: (Pause) No.
Lorraine Sylvia, Killed April 19, 1993: … watching the lies the federal agents have told it's astounding day after day how far they go. 1, that's just one agency. All of the other agencies back there are going to back them up. That's including our federal government. We, the people, don't run this government anymore. They do. And they tell all the lies they want. (Do you think all of these men are like that? Don't, do you not see that there might be some sincere that are trying to do the best from their vantage point?) Those that are trying to do their best are trying to do their best. They have a family back home too. But they don't understand what this is going to do to them. If they did, they would speak out.
David Koresh: (cough) Ahh ohh ahhh Oh God uhh
FBI negotiator: Are you OK? — Page 20 —
David Koresh: Ahh I'm bleedin' again I coughed wait a minute Ohh..ah
[Koresh showing bullet wound]
David Koresh, Killed April 19, 1993: Want to see one of the holes, here? Here's one of 'em … This one went out right here … Can you see it Steve. (You'll have to turn more.)
Jim Cavanaugh: If you die … you tell me … if you die from that wound, I want you to tell me what's going to happen.
David Koresh: Well, I'm not going to be around any more then I to influence anybody, right?
Jim Cavanaugh: David listen …
David Koresh: No Jim, listen …
Jim Cavanaugh: This has been painful for us …
David Koresh: Jim listen … listen, Jim … There's nothing that hurts me more than bein' called a Cult Leader, alright? If I'm wrong, people like me don't deserve to live, OK?
Jim Cavanaugh: … listen … listen …
David Koresh: Do you understand me, Jim? If you let the people, think, cause you know, they're all scared around here now. You know, don't burn our building down.
Jim Cavanaugh: Ah we won't do that.
David Koresh: Don't shoot us all up … They've got to have that time.
Jim Cavanaugh: But David if you die, you're leavin' your people helpless.
David Koresh: Look, they're God's people … I'm just an instrument, OK? I show them out of a book what God teaches. Then it's for them to decide.